Frost in the Attic

[Jerry Peck]

Lets give these guys reading these posts the benefit of our combined experience and recognize the value of ventilation for what it really is.

Ernie,

I believe that if you go back and re-read my posts, you will see that *I* *DO* state that insulated attics required proper insulation.

I believe you will also see that Roy and I have stated that there IS moisture in the attic (otherwise there would not be any condensation, which is what lead to the frost).

You will also find that I said that all openings LEADING INTO THE ATTIC need to be sealed ... not about sealing of the attic vents - but that is another topic of itself.

On that other topic of itself ... there is nothing wrong with having SEALED attics which have NO ventilation.

The problem comes in when there is a VENTED ATTIC which does not have adequate ventilation, and the moisture in the attic becomes a problem when EXCESSIVE amounts of moisture enter the attic from the living space below. Those EXCESSIVE amounts are from air leaks which ARE REQUIRED TO BE SEALED, but are most often not sealed. There will always be some air and moisture transfer from the living space into the attic through the drywall itself.

For the benefit of all who read these posts, it is of importance that you READ THE POST CORRECTLY and not change that information around and try to say that it says something else.

What Roy and I were commenting on was the reference to being concerned with mould in the attic, when that is of no concern - deal with the cause of the moisture and the mould which is of no concern will disappear - the mould DOES NOT need to be tested as to what type it is or what the spore count is.

[Roy Cooke sr]

Roy and Jerry

With all due respect to your knowledge. I have read you posts for several months now and I do have respect for most of your opinions. This frost in the attic thing and your apparent lack of acknowledging the importance of attic ventilation in a cold heating climate is absurd. Yes moisture in the attic is coming from within the conditioned area's of the home. Yes a home owner should vent bathroom, kitchen and clothe dryer exhauststs fully to the exterior of the home. We went through a period of construction in the 70's and early 80's where builders were told the tighter you can seal up a home the better off you will be. Well it didn't work then either. Air exchanges in a home are important (don't confuse that statement with thinking I mean sealing ceiling light boxes and attic access's is not important, because it is).

There is no difference in the mold on your pudding and the mold that is going to grow in Gerry's attic if it is not properly vented. It's easy to throw the pudding away. What's your answer for his attic when he goes to sell and Mr. Home Inspector comes along and says " gee what a nice home, with the exception of the black attic mold". It's time to either get off the high horse about not installing ventilation in an attic, or explain why it's just the rest of the world that is wrong. Mold propagation in an attic needs three things (just like your refrigerator) food source, moisture and the correct temperature. All three are present in an attic. The mold cells floating in the attic are simply waiting for a reason to propogate.

You guys can run around with your caulking guns and tell everybody things will be fine. Personally I am going to wait for that special day and install some attic ventilation in my homes.

Nobody else has denied that moisture comes from within the home, and that it can be some what controlled (but not 100%). Insulation R values are resistance to heat loss, which is greatest through a ceiling. Even R 60 insulation will eventually allow warm moisture laden air into an attic.

Lets give these guys reading these posts the benefit of our combined experience and recognize the value of ventilation for what it really is.

I tyr to not let my opinions Influance my knowledge.
Usuall when I say some thing I have information to back up my statements .
If I have a small amount of dought you will see my words could or might and other words.
I see too much of amatures teaching amatures to be amatures in this industry.
Now to you I say try Google and see what you find .
They have been building unvented attics in other colder parts of the world and it seems to be great .
Try this (Unvented attics - Google Search)

I expect you might need to cut and paste it . Jerry and I just might have a little more knowledge then you give us credit for .

Royshomeinspection.com

Please post your web site so we can see it .

[Ernie Tate]

Gee Jerry

You sure took the long way around to continue to deny ventilation in an attic in a cold, heating climate is important. I realize after looking at your web site and finding out that you live in florida why you havn't witnessed first hand what a lack of ventilation can do in an attic.

For those of you following this exchange of idea's from a bunch of old bull headed home inspector's there is a difference between venting attics in a cold, heating climate, and a warm predominantly cooling climate.

Ventilation in an attic (any attic) in a heating climate will prevent ice damming, gutter freeze ups, attic mold, premature shingle deterioration, possible roof edge rot, loss of ceiliing due to moisture saturation (yes I have seen this), and lord know what else.

I live in south eastern Idaho where is not uncommon to see temperatures 20 to 40 below zero.

I love this exchange of idea's. Keep up the good work.

[Ernie Tate]

Roy

I did google the link, nothing I have not seen before but was worth mentioning for some of the other ameteurs. The only thing is you are missing the entire point of my criticism of your advice to Gerry who happens to have an attic full of frost. His attic is obviously not a candidate to be considered an unvented attic. The problem as I see it that you guys have bullied this website so long you think your gods gift to home inspectors. I have probably forgotten more about construction than you will ever know.

Can we not be sensible and agree in this particular attic that it would be reasonable to install some ventilation.

Gerry asked for our help and advice, telling him to tune up the caulking gun and not worry about the frost in the attic is not very nice.

[Jim Luttrall]

Forgive me, but we here in Seattle don't see many freezing temperatures (until this week) and I haven't seen frost buildup in the attic space. How concerned should I be about this?? The situation is a 2000 build, the North side of the sheathing (from the attic) had a layer of frost. I had adequate ventilation and adequate insulation (aside from a few areas where there were footprints). Is this "normal" for freezing temps or should I never, under any circumstances have frost buildup on the sheathing?? Thanks in advance!

Ernie, The OP says he had adequate ventilation and insulation. That is the premise of all of the respondents.
NO ONE that I have read here has said anything about not ventilating the attic, that is something every amateur knows. Before you criticize everyone in sight like you know more and have forgotten more than anyone else on earth, try to read what was written rather than inventing your own story line.

[Roy Cooke sr]

Roy

I did google the link, nothing I have not seen before but was worth mentioning for some of the other ameteurs. The only thing is you are missing the entire point of my criticism of your advice to Gerry who happens to have an attic full of frost. His attic is obviously not a candidate to be considered an unvented attic. The problem as I see it that you guys have bullied this website so long you think your gods gift to home inspectors. I have probably forgotten more about construction than you will ever know.

Can we not be sensible and agree in this particular attic that it would be reasonable to install some ventilation.

Gerry asked for our help and advice, telling him to tune up the caulking gun and not worry about the frost in the attic is not very nice.

Sorry you seem to lack some compresion My total of 33 posts is far from Bulling .
I am sorry to hear you forgotten so much of what you learned .
I looked for your web site please correct me if I am wrong .

(" http://tcshomeinspections.com/about.html')

To ridicule Jerry for living in Florida sounds like jealousy,
Well I am glad for Jerry and wished I too could live in the South.
, I understand most people who live in Florida are from away.
I expect Jerry and I just might have a few more years in construction then you.
Years in Construction does not make an expert I am still learning.
To ignore Google is unfortunate as it has much information to help all.
No I do not know if it needs more ventiliation All I know is it has frost in the attic and I see it frequently .
Simple fix is stop warm moist air from entering the attic .

Royshomeinspection.com

[Jerry Peck]

Gee Jerry

You sure took the long way around to continue to deny ventilation in an attic in a cold, heating climate is important.

Ernie,

Are you actually reading my posts? I mean, reading the words I am writing?

Or are you simply imagining words so you can try to say I said something different?

(for your reading skill improvement I have made red and bold the part you seem to be missing)

Reis,

Whenever you see things like in your photo, I would hesitate before stating there was "adequate" ventilation as better ventilation may well hep prevent that, which would mean that what is there is no "adequate".

Now, if by "adequate" you mean 'the code required' amount of ventilation, then I would stay away from the term "adequate" anyway.

Like others (or so it seems as I read the above), I suspect two things:
- too much air exfiltration from the living space into the attic
- the humidity may have already been in the attic and a sudden and dramatic temperature drop simply freezes the moisture in place
- which gets back to 'too much air exfiltration from the living space into the attic'

Which indicate inadequate ventilation (allowing air exfiltration from the living space into the attic means that more ventilation is needed to off set it). Which is not so much of a ventilation problem as much as an air exfiltration problem.

I do see where I left off a close parenthesis, but I would think that a person reasonably proficient in reading would recognize that and understand where it was supposed to be, but I have added it in blue ")".

I then went on to explain that, in the case being asked about, the cause is excess moisture in the attic, and that the most likely cause of that excess moisture is from the living space inside the house.

[Bert de Haan]

... I have probably forgotten more about construction than you will ever know.

I also might have forgotten more than they will ever know but it is exactly this forgetting that makes me so vulnerable to mistakes. I might not need to listen (to both sides of this argument) if I had not forgotten all that. Too bad this ended up as argument (arguing) rather than an argument (argumentation.) In spite of all that, I believe most of us amateurs will be able to weed through this and still be able to learn.

[Ernie Tate]

Hello Jim

Please look at GerryM's post, I failed to see where he stated he had adequate ventilation. I believe we are talking about two different homes, and posts.

I think its time to start over. I am very passionate about black attic mold and its cause's. Moisture in an attic can come from many many sources, I believe we all agree with this. What to do with when it gets there, as is the case in GerryM's attic is important. I am trying to make a simple point that venting unwanted moisture out of an attic space in a heating climate is important. End of my story.

[Jerry Peck]

I am trying to make a simple point that venting unwanted moisture out of an attic space in a heating climate is important. End of my story.

And I don't recall anyone who has disagreed with that.

[Cobra Cook]

Just curious? We are talking about too much moisture penatrating through the attic from the living space below in a cold climate with some sort of heat inside of the house, arn't we? Where is all of this excess moisture coming from? In the winter time with the heat going you are actually lowering the humidity in the air by heating it up. Shoot even baseboard electric heaters dry the air. If the house has a humidifyer maybe its just set too high or if maybe you have a ventless gas heater that is providing heat, then they do put moisture back into the air through the burning process. You really do not need too much venting in the attic in the winter time and that is why turbin vents come with a styrofoam blocks you put in the hole to prevent too much venting in the winter, just like a thermostat on a power vent. The summer time is where venting plays the most important part. Do Eskamos put vents in their eggloos? I wonder?

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Just curious? We are talking about too much moisture penatrating through the attic from the living space below in a cold climate with some sort of heat inside of the house, arn't we? Where is all of this excess moisture coming from? In the winter time with the heat going you are actually lowering the humidity in the air by heating it up. Shoot even baseboard electric heaters dry the air. If the house has a humidifyer maybe its just set too high or if maybe you have a ventless gas heater that is providing heat, then they do put moisture back into the air through the burning process. You really do not need too much venting in the attic in the winter time and that is why turbin vents come with a styrofoam blocks you put in the hole to prevent too much venting in the winter, just like a thermostat on a power vent. The summer time is where venting plays the most important part. Do Eskamos put vents in their eggloos? I wonder?

You seem to confuse the difference between relative humidity and absolute humidity.

There is more than one way to heat a home, other than dry heat forced air.

Occupied homes with living beings respirating and engaging in life activities produce copious amounts of moisture.

Colder air can "hold" less "moisture". Hence the condensation/frost on the coldest surface.

[Ernie Tate]

Well said

Thank you Mr. Watson

[Roy Cooke sr]

Do Eskamos put vents in their eggloos? I wonder?

Yes they did they had to get the smoke out from The seal oil lamp they used for light heat and cooking . Temp inside was about 33°F

Story from google here ( http://www.qia.ca/i18n/english/pdf/I...20outlined.pdf )

Roy Cooke

[Cobra Cook]

Well i do admit that when y bride and i do have wild and crazy hot sex we do give off quite a bit of moisture but, to mosturize an entire house no chance of that, hot showers, cooking, ect still the same since they are both vented to the out side, relitive or absoulote humidity are the same animal, one is the relationship between the temp and weight of the air and the other is simply moisture. humidifiers simply give off moisture based on what the humidistat tells it to do by what the occupants set it at. I don't care what type of heat you use it all will dry the air thus lowering the moisture in the air it is heating, just like a dryer heats up your clothes to remove the moisture, hair dryers do the same. While warmer air can hold more moisture and have lower RH the lower temp air still contains the same amount of moisture but at a higher RH. Take the temp in you refrigerator and see how much the rh is to compare it to the humidity in your house is. Wood, coal , electric base board , radiators, heat pump, gas, kerosen heators, oil circulators, oil burners, did i miss any, will more than dry what the occupants can produce which is why you get dry skin in the winter and oily skin in the summer.

[Jim Luttrall]

Cobra, your missing the boat on your understanding of moisture movement from what you are posting.
Your whole house does turn into a big dryer in the winter heating up all the moisture inside, turning it into steam (water vapor) which then leaks through the holes, some of which are in the attic. (It also leaks into the walls, but that is another story.)
What happens to that warm moist air in the attic? It cools down which raises the relative humidity and if the temperature difference is great enough, the water vapor condenses into liquid and you have wet attic materials, just like fog condenses on every cold surface.
What is the solution? Either add heat to the attic (not very practical in today's homes), reduce the amount of moisture that goes to the attic ( vapor barriers and air sealing), or ventilate to reduce the amount of water vapor in the attic space before it has a chance to reach dewpoint. Or use a combination of the above.
Contrary to your hypothesis, Ventilation is even more important in vented attics in the winter than in the summer.

[John Kogel]

Do Eskamos put vents in their eggloos?

Just a splash of rum in mine, thanks.

[H.G. Watson, Sr.]

Well i do admit that when y XXXXX XXX X XX XXXX XXXX XXX XXXXX XXX XXX XX XX XXXX XXX XXXXX X XXX XX XXXXXXXXX but, to mosturize an entire house no chance of that, hot showers, cooking, ect still the same since they are both vented to the out side, relitive or absoulote humidity are the same animal, one is the relationship between the temp and weight of the air and the other is simply moisture. humidifiers simply give off moisture based on what the humidistat tells it to do by what the occupants set it at. I don't care what type of heat you use it all will dry the air thus lowering the moisture in the air it is heating, just like a dryer heats up your clothes to remove the moisture, hair dryers do the same. While warmer air can hold more moisture and have lower RH the lower temp air still contains the same amount of moisture but at a higher RH. Take the temp in you refrigerator and see how much the rh is to compare it to the humidity in your house is. Wood, coal , electric base board , radiators, heat pump, gas, kerosen heators, oil circulators, oil burners, did i miss any, will more than dry what the occupants can produce which is why you get dry skin in the winter and oily skin in the summer.

"Cobra Cook",

You have proven in the past that you use a term, abbreviation, etc. with absolutely NO COMPREHENSION as to what it means (such as SoP in numerous posts, then claim it means Standard Operating Procedure - not Standards of Practice, and still have no idea what the SoPs are).

It is obvious you have no idea what you are trying to talk about in this topic thread.

1. The same amount of actual (absolute) moisture (measurable water volume/content) but a lower RH all things being equal when you warm a selected sample of "air". RH stands for Realitive Humidity.

2. Most modern refrigerators employ a dryer/heater function - all part of the defrost cycle; Even "ice boxes" employed a drain and a means to catch run off and condensation - thus the "drip pan". Newer zero clearance appliances still have a "drip pan" and direct the heat from the condensor fan to blow on and evaporate the "dripped" collection. Therefore both your example making whatever your point was, is faulty; and your refrigerator example is yet another source of MOISTURE to the conditioned space.

3. Apparently you have limited experience with hydronic or radiant heating, the concept of evaporation, what happens during animal respiration, the combustion process, and science in general.

4. Your oily skin references indicate an ignorant and bigoted unfamiliararity with the body human.

5. You often make wild and inaccurate statements and claims filled with with spelling errors, factual errors, and ignorant claims: one wonders what is your purpose or motive drives your participation on this message board.

[Steven Stafford]

Ouch!

[David Bell]

Section 406.1 of the IMC states that Uninhabited spaces, such as crawl spaces and attics, shall be provided with natural ventilation openings as required by the IBC or be provided with a mechanical exhaust and supply air system.

[Jerry Peck]

Section 406.1 of the IMC states that Uninhabited spaces, such as crawl spaces and attics, shall be provided with natural ventilation openings as required by the IBC or be provided with a mechanical exhaust and supply air system.

The IMC doe not apply to one- and two-family dwellings or townhouses.

The IRC does allow the use of the other codes if one so choses, but the IMC is not enforceable to the structures covered by the IRC ... unless the plan calls for the (whatever system) to meet the IMC, in which case the IRC calls for meeting the construction documents (one of which is the plan) and thus the IMC would be included by reference.

[Cobra Cook]

Jim, HG ,go s---w your selves, while I do not spell check every one of my words, I do think out every thing I post, you two are the ignorant ones in that it appears you expect every one to agree with your posts are the only answer that can be achieved with a questions, one point is that when a refrigerator or freezer defrosts, the condensate goes to the drain pan of which the discharge line from the compressor is laying in to help lower the head pressure for a more efficient operation. This does not raise the moisture in the house as it was already their in the first place, it is merely recycling it to where it came from, the inside air and a very little amount at that.
SOP Standard Operating Procedure is what any business is supposed to operate under, SOP's, Standards’ of Practice may only relate to you as a Home Inspector to follow certain guidelines of what an inspector should follow, but each organizations are a little different, I go one step further to also incorporate them into how to successfully stay in business. I strongly suggest you read up on that subject. You apparently do not have the intellect to think for your self which is evident in the way you cut and paste in most of your post. If that is ignorant in your mind then I feel sorry for you, your wife and kids if you have any that is, if anyone would have you.
You dare call me a bigot, just be careful to not slip and divulge the location of your business. If your skin does not feel different in the winter when the humidity is lower in a heated environment than in the summer when the humidity is balmy then you apparently are not human but merely a sack of blubber who has no intellectual ability to think before you open that big mouth and what ever you use to write on this post.
I read this post because sometimes people just want a simple answer to what may seem like a complicated question to them but could just a simple answer to an experienced home inspector or other professional person who reads this site.What they choose to do with that answer is up to them. I do not cut and paste articles that I have seen numerously from your posts to attempt to prove my point and best of all I do not preach Code as U do either as it is not within the "Stanards of Practice" of any home inspector. I would be interested in knowing what school certified either of you to become a home inspector. The end, Cobra

[Bert de Haan]

I'll have a try; The low moisture content in the air during the winter is not really due to the heating of the house but due to the cold temperature outside. The cold air can't hold as much water so it condenses and leaves the air. That's why there is hoar frost. That is also why drywall in an unheated garage becomes soggy; it is absorbing the moisture that the air cannot hang on to anymore. When this air with the low moisture content (even though it is almost saturated i.e. high relative humidity, low absolute humidity) leaks into the house, our heating system warms it up and all of a sudden it is able to absorb more moisture again. It absorbs this moisture from all the things you mentioned; showers, perspiration, cooking and yes, also from our skin. So the absolute humidity in the house air goes up but the relative humidity is still way lower than the outside air. (They are not the same animal.) When this air gets cooled enough, the moisture will condense. That is why you get moisture on the inside of your windows and not on the glass door of the china cabinet. That is also why the drywall in the house doesn't get soggy even though there is more total moisture inside compared to in the unheated garage.
In the event the house air leaks into the attic when it is very cold, it may get cool enough to let go of whatever moisture it picked up out of the house. You wrote

Take the temp in you refrigerator and see how much the rh is to compare it to the humidity in your house is.

My guess is the absolute humidity will be considerably lower in the fridge than in the house but the relative humidity in the fridge will likely be much higher in the fridge than in the house.

[Jim Luttrall]

Jim, HG ,go s---w your selves, while I do not spell check every one of my words, I do think out every thing I post, you two are the ignorant ones in that it appears you expect every one to agree with your posts are the only answer that can be achieved with a questions, one point is that when a refrigerator or freezer defrosts, the condensate goes to the drain pan of which the discharge line from the compressor is laying in to help lower the head pressure for a more efficient operation. This does not raise the moisture in the house as it was already their in the first place, it is merely recycling it to where it came from, the inside air and a very little amount at that.
SOP Standard Operating Procedure is what any business is supposed to operate under, SOP's, Standards’ of Practice may only relate to you as a Home Inspector to follow certain guidelines of what an inspector should follow, but each organizations are a little different, I go one step further to also incorporate them into how to successfully stay in business. I strongly suggest you read up on that subject. You apparently do not have the intellect to think for your self which is evident in the way you cut and paste in most of your post. If that is ignorant in your mind then I feel sorry for you, your wife and kids if you have any that is, if anyone would have you.
You dare call me a bigot, just be careful to not slip and divulge the location of your business. If your skin does not feel different in the winter when the humidity is lower in a heated environment than in the summer when the humidity is balmy then you apparently are not human but merely a sack of blubber who has no intellectual ability to think before you open that big mouth and what ever you use to write on this post.
I read this post because sometimes people just want a simple answer to what may seem like a complicated question to them but could just a simple answer to an experienced home inspector or other professional person who reads this site.What they choose to do with that answer is up to them. I do not cut and paste articles that I have seen numerously from your posts to attempt to prove my point and best of all I do not preach Code as U do either as it is not within the "Stanards of Practice" of any home inspector. I would be interested in knowing what school certified either of you to become a home inspector. The end, Cobra

Cobra, sorry if my trying to explain something offended you enough to lump my name in with another to tell us to go s---w ourselves. I have no idea what the other poster said since he is on my ignore list. Since you seem to know it all and do not seem to be interested in give an take, you will be on the same list too. Have a nice life.

[Richard Reynolds]

I have seen this problem in Wyoming and after further inspection I find there are no soffit vents or they are covered up. This will cause the attic to draw warm moist air up from the hous.

[Rick Bunzel]

To All

Great Post except for the thread drifts.

OK OK I get how this happens - How should we write it up? What type of contractor is best to refer this out too?

Thanks

//Rick

[Roy Cooke sr]

To All

Great Post except for the thread drifts.

OK OK I get how this happens - How should we write it up? What type of contractor is best to refer this out too?

Thanks

//Rick

('Recommend immediate repair by qualified person.")

This gets the home Inspector ( you?) off the hook and lets the client know they should do somthing .

Just about any reasonable handy Man ( person ) should be able to find and fix the air leaks from the home .

Roy Cooke

[Jerry Peck]

What type of contractor is best to refer this out too?

Just about any reasonable handy Man ( person ) should be able to find and fix the air leaks from the home .

Very few, if any, "handyman' type people, be they he or she, will be properly licensed and insured.

What if something happens to them? What if they do something they should not?

[Richard Reynolds]

Further inspection and repair should be conducted by a licensed contractor.

[Roger Hankey]

1. Have a qualified energy auditor or building scientist quantify and locate the air leaks using a blower door and IR thermography. 2. Have a qualified insulation firm seal all air leaks as ID'd by the energy audit. It may be possible to skip step one if the insulation contractor deems that it is cost effective to REMOVE all existing attic insulation to reveal the air leaks and facilitate sealing the leaks. The insulation contractor would re-insulate after sealing all leaks. This is NOT a job for a handyman.